There need not be one poverty line: Yoginder Alagh

Interview with Former minister

Politicians like Raj Babbar and Farooq Abdullah have kicked up a storm by saying that it is possible to have a full meal in India within Rs 12. The Planning Commission had said that a person who spends over Rs 33.33 a day in urban areas and Rs 27.2 in villages cannot be considered poor. How does one decide who is poor and who isn't? Former minister Yoginder Alagh, who is also the creator of the Alagh Poverty Line, tells Sreelatha Menon that it is time India arrived at a new poverty line

You calculated the first-ever poverty line that divided the poor from the not-so-poor. Prior to that, how did the government estimate poverty?

The planning commission set up a committee which defined the poverty line as less than Rs 20 per capita for a household of five persons. Nobody is sure what went into this calculation. V N Dandekar and [Nilakantha] Rath of the Gokhale Institute conducted a study on poverty for the Ford Foundation using this line. These were never used in the five-year plans but figured only in the background papers. So they were not used for any practical purposes. Ours was the first systematic attempt to work out a poverty line. A committee was set up in 1975. I headed it and Suresh Tendulkar was a member. But we did not give state-level figures as that data was not reliable enough.

According to your estimate, what percentage of Indians was poor?

Above 40 per cent were estimated to be poor. But this was based on the consumption data of the National Sample Survey Organisation for 1972-73. I said that using the same calculation in 1986 made no sense. It was outdated. Those days a lot of people were living in hunger. It was a different world. Our per capita food consumption has gone up and hence, we need a new poverty line. So I proposed as member of planning commission in 1985 to set up the Lakdawala committee, a task force on minimum needs and effective demands. Drawing a new poverty line and not re-jigging it was the purpose of the committee. But then the Rajiv Gandhi government fell and I resigned.

Did Lakdawala go beyond calories to calculate poverty?
Three decades later, it can't be just about calories. The same problem continues with the committee under Tendulkar. He took the urban poverty line from us and made it the national poverty line. He was also supposed to draw a new poverty line. Our concept of the minimum that should be given to the aam aadmi should change. The anger of the people is justified because the present poverty line is embedded in the Alagh Poverty Line, which is redundant. I'm saying get rid of it as it is no longer logical. But no one is looking at the real issue. For that you have to go out and talk to people. When we calculated, we consulted people. Someone said consider age and so on. We did that.

Isn't this what the C Rangarajan Committee has to do?
Rangarajan has to rework the basic thing and that needs time. He cannot carry on with what belonged to the 1970s. I haven't seen any consultations happening so far.

What do you think of claims that food can be bought for Rs 5?
First of all, it shows ignorance of poverty. It is trivialising a serious debate. The political debate is a shame. Very few poor people go out and eat in restaurants. If people are angry, it is justified. But genuine concern can be addressed only by redefining the poverty line. What you need is a new poverty line and not such claims. When we say that Rs 35 or Rs 40 is the poverty line, we are not talking about eating out. It is whether a family which spends Rs 150 a day can buy enough wheat, oil and vegetables and whether it can cook a meal.

How would you define poverty today?
One needs a national-level discussion with a diverse group of people, including politicians, social groups and economists across states. You have to develop an idea of what is a minimal good life. You take into account what a person needs for food, water, education, health and leave out some for aspirational needs. Then there is some scope for innovation. Secondly, deprivation indices would be different for different purposes. So, there need not be one poverty line. For instance, it would be different for the deprived regions of Orissa. Deprivation levels for schooling would be different. Then, there is a minimum health standard. Taking a poverty line when we were leading a hand-to-mouth existence and applying it to an India that is on the go is not acceptable.

Do you agree with Jagdish Bhagwati's view that economic growth, such as seen in Gujarat, is an antidote to poverty?
Gujarat is a high-growth model and overall poverty levels have gone down to less than 15 per cent. But growth alone cannot remove poverty. There are regions in Gujarat like the Purab Patti, an adivasi area, where 55 per cent of the people are below the poverty line. You need special plans for special areas.