There are a variety of ways to represent a long term goal in Paris agreement: Francois Richier

Francois Richier, France’s ambassador to India spoke to Nitin Sethi on the Paris Climate Change conference. Edited excerpts:

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Your comments on the recent France-China joint declaration on climate change please.
China is an important partner in the negotiations. So it was natural thing to reach out to them with the joint communique as the result. We are reaching out to all important countries to ensure a comprehensive interaction with all of them. It is part of our responsibility as co-chair of COP21. We are already acting as the chair and not just France. This is to ensure that there is a fair and balanced text. Speaking to everyone and try to bridge the gaps. We shall have other interactions in the month to come such as the G20 and the Commonwealth summit and other activities that will take place and we also expect dignitaries to come to India in the coming weeks. When the President met Prime Minister Modi in New York and climate change was a big part of the conversation.
 
What is expected from the heads of states meeting, which is being held on the first day and not the last day of the conference? Will a political package come out of it?
At the Copenhagen summit the leaders were asked to come at the end and the negotiations did not conclude and that created a lot of difficulties. Basic idea is just the opposite, ask the leaders to come first, give clear cut directions and guidelines to their negotiators so they have a mandate of their own leaders to conclude the agreement by December 11. So there need not be negotiations at this level during the kick-off ceremony. It is something which is very dedicated to the leaders to give direction to the negotiators.

Are we looking at a political package?
No, they will be there to give guidelines and direction to the negotiators. You see, we already have a text which was agreed upon, after a difficult start at Bonn.

You are putting that politely.
Well you know, a difficult start is what it was but at the end we got an agreed text. It’s still a long text – 50 pages. If you compare it to the text that leaders got when they arrived at Copenhagen it was 200 pages. Fifty pages but many brackets are there so there is a lot of work to do but we have a sound and reliable basis for the negotiations. This will be the work of the negotiators once again and the leaders will give them political guidance to move forward.

Will climate finance concerns be resolved at Paris successfully?
Financing sustainable development was a key topic of the Addis Ababa meeting and they agreed to a certain general approach to that. I think in the multilateral negotiations like this one there are of course some hot potatoes but there is an overall agreement that is decided upon at the end. Each country that participates must find a result at the end which is good for everyone and ensure that we have a better result for everybody and individual players cannot comment and say I need this or that. It’s a principle of multilateralism that everyone makes an effort to reach a global consensus. Of course it is difficult and we should not rule out the difficulties and certainly finance is one. Even in that context we have made significant progress over the past few months. The Green Fund is already 10 billion dollars and the $100 billion dollars that are going to be delivered by 2020 – there is an optimism that it will be there. Of course, there is different ways to calculate this.

Such as the concerns raised by G77+ China on the OECD report…
See that is normal, at least there is one report that proposes something. It is much better than nothing and the debate can start. But generally speaking the commitment of the developed countries will be fulfilled simply because that is something we committed to do. This is speaking as France and not the chair of the COP. At the end I think the expectations will be fulfilled.

What are the possibilities for a road map for post-2020 finance in context of the larger picture?
I know about this debate about the capacity of the EU on climate change. First of all, developed world is not just Europe, there is the US, Canada, Japan and many others and it’s a commitment by all of us. Second, when you look at the situation, indeed some countries are facing great difficulties but altogether the EU remains the largest economy of the world and that will not change before long so I think we have the capacity to fulfill our commitments

There are terms about a Long Term Goal under the Paris agreement such as de-carbonisation and climate resilience being used. Where does France stand on this?
Frankly on these issues we have changed genders. What is on the table is a variety of way to represent what is at the end of a long term goal to limit the rise of temperatures below 2 degree Celsius. There are different ways to describe it and this is exactly the focus of the negotiations – to find a formula which can satisfy everybody. The difference between now and before is that everyone is engaged in discussions in finding the right wording to present that reality and objective. Few years ago there were people saying that there is no problem, it is not man-made and climate change is not a difficulty etc. But now we have mutual discussions to reflect the reality. We may have some proposal during the negotiations after having heard everybody but we do not have a national proposal in this respect.

Can you talk about India’s role so far in the negotiations and climate change in general?
I have been ambassador in India for four years I have seen things changing over the time. While investments in renewables sector existed before. But since Mr Modi became Prime Minister many changes have occurred. First, that the government of India has recognised that this is a very big challenge and the name of the environment ministry was changed to reflect that.

Am I reading you correctly, that you suggest the previous government did not consider climate change as serious?
They did not put it as high on the agenda as Mr Modi has done and since the very beginning there was a deeper commitment by Mr Modi which dates back to his time as chief minister of Gujarat when he had a secretary for climate change, he focused on it, had a vision for it and wrote a book on climate change. This clearly showed even before the elections in 2014 that Mr Modi would give a special focus. This we have seen now, including in the INDC that India has produced. Which, if my recollection is correct, is the first time in recent Indian history that such an overarching document is produced encompassing all activities of the government, including the schemes and programmes. All this is to ensure that India will contribute to the common goal with the best of its abilities and possibilities. So that is important change in terms of mind-set and mobilisation of the bureaucracy. Public language is also important. Like, when Mr Modi advocated Make in India policy he himself stated that Make in India investments should have zero effect and zero defect policy, which is very ambitious but the idea is there and the direction is clear. So, yes we have seen a very big difference. Not to forget other initiatives which are international such as the Solar Alliance.

Despite the renewable energy target for 2020, which some call over-ambitious, India will still need to considerably add to its coal power capacity. But the developed countries have called for disinvestment in green-field coal and a stop to new coal mines.
The policies which are envisioned in years to come are based on current situation and the current situation and the electricity structure which is not going to change in one or two years. This is the very structure of Indian energy sector. We have two three levels of actions here. First of all I am sure in the coal sector India can use the best technologies and we have seen decisions in this respect. Second, maximum possible energy is from non-fossil fuel sources. In this we have four key routes, nuclear, hydro-power, wind and solar. If you see the targets set up there is a huge change proposed in the energy mix. Of course, no one is saying in climate change discussions that coal based production be dismantled in a few years, what everyone is saying is that a cleaner and less carbon emitting energy mix can happen.

And on the point of the renewable energy target being over-ambitious I cannot subscribe to this particular adjective for two reasons. One, prices in solar are reducing very sharply. Seven eight years ago prices were Rs 17-18. In the latest tender it went down to 6 rupees which is below the Rs 6.5 which is for coal-based power. Second, the French companies alone are going to do 10% of this (the renewable energy target of India) which was committed during Prime Minister’s visit to France. If five French companies can do that lets imagine what it will be when hundreds of other Indian companies and others shall contribute.

Sorry, but I felt you side-stepped the question on disinvestment in coal.
Oh I can respond to that. It is clear that it is part of our own policies very little remains of thermal power in France but nevertheless we have decided that we shall focus on setting up renewables which together with nuclear will ensure that our status as the lowest emitter in the developed world shall remain and we will continue to be leaders in that respect.

Sorry for persisting, but, I was speaking of disinvestment in coal in developing countries such as India which require more coal over years.
I don’t think so because we have been working on cleaner technologies on coal, which will remain possible. Of course, in France we do not build any thermal power plants anymore but each country will have to decide what energy they want. For example in France, the government’s support to export power plants will be still possible for coal power provided its clean technologies but we are not going to do any more traditional type of coal power plants that existing. When we look at evolution in countries like China, which are very dependent on coal, they are following a very similar path where what they do in future with coal is different.

Aren't there concerns about hiatus between now and 2020 in more climate action by EU?
We have in EU very different energy policies depending on energy choices. We are trying to set up a unified position for 2021 and secondly we are working on a more unified energy policy. At the end of the day because we have a unified market this is something we have to develop. Having said that the general orientation that will be taken would be clearly towards renewable.

Can we expect higher targets by EU between now and 2020?
The EU position going to Paris is at least 40% emission reduction

Sorry, I was referring to the targets for 2020.
There are specific negotiations on pre-2020 actions. There are discussions on it and they are important for Paris.

One last question, you spoke of India’s role in general on climate change but would you comment on what would you would expect from India at the negotiations to have a successful agreement?
I think everybody is convinced in the Indian government that having an agreement at Paris is central. Not only because an agreement is itself important but that having an agreement will send a very important signal for the business community and civil society and others that this is the way ahead for international growth and development. I am sure that when the time will come to negotiate it word by word, bracket by bracket India will play a very positive role.