Sanjay Paswan, the president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)'s Scheduled Caste Morcha, has over the past couple of years attempted to re-tailor his party's outreach to Dalits. Paswan, a former minister, claims the 2014 Lok Sabha elections would be an eye-opener in respect of the increase of BJP's vote share among Dalits. He tells Archis Mohan that the new government should amend the law to end the monopoly on reservation of a handful of Dalit castes. Edited excerpts:
What has been the BJP Scheduled Caste (SC) Morcha's battle plan in the 2014 Lok Sabha elections?
The BJP's target in this election was to increase its overall vote share by 10 per cent. I had committed that four per cent of this would come from Dalits. What I had asked for and received was a certain freedom in devising an independent strategy. This included projecting four Dalit icons in my meetings -Bhim Rao Ambedkar, Babu Jagjivan Ram, K R Narayanan and Kanshi Ram ji. Not one of them was from the BJP. Initially, there was a bit of controversy and resistance when I put up their photographs in my room at the BJP headquarters. But we argued with the party leadership that the Dalit samaj respected these four more than any other politician.
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Narayanan rose to the highest echelons of the government by engaging with the wider society and maintaining a good equation within his party (the Congress). He was a reporter, ambassador, vice-chancellor of a university, Member of Parliament, minister, vice-president and then president. Ambedkar gave the country its Constitution. Jagjivan Ram didn't lose even one of the 11 elections he contested. Kanshi Ram brought the community to the doorstep of power, anointing a person of his choice as the chief minister of the largest state of this country.
We convinced our party to accept them as icons of the SC Morcha. For Dalits, these four are great men and not mere politicians. The top leaders didn't object but the mid-level did. I am thankful to (BJP president) Rajnath Singh ji and Narendra Modi ji for giving me that support and freedom.
We identified four sections of Dalits - women, intellectuals, businessmen/industrialists and labourers. We reached out to these sections to tell them about Modi's vision of development for all.
What is your assessment of the BJP's performance among the Dalits of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar in the ongoing elections?
In Uttar Pradesh, scheduled castes are estimated to be 21 per cent of the state's population. My own estimate is that Dalits comprise nearly 24 per cent. I have reasons to believe that as much as 14 per cent of this population has voted for the BJP, that is all the non-Jatav castes and even 25 per cent of Jatavs, particularly the youth. Non-Jatavs are tired of Mayawati and the Bahujan Samaj Party treating them as a vote bank. There are many among the Jatavs upset with her for treating Kanshi Ram's family so shoddily.
In Bihar, the Paswan community's vote, which is around 50,000 in most of the state's 40 Lok Sabha constituencies, has gone to the BJP because of our alliance with Ram Vilas Paswan's Lok Janshakti Party. BJP has also received at least 25 per cent of the mahadalit votes.
You have been an advocate of amending the rules governing SC reservation in jobs and educational institutions?
I oppose the fourth generation or 4G getting any benefits of reservation. Currently, few Dalit families and caste groups have monopolised the benefits of reservation. It has become exclusive. This reservation should become more inclusive. As a general rule, the fourth generation shouldn't be allowed to get the benefit of reservation. But this should also have a caveat. The second generation shouldn't get reservation where monthly salary of the parent/s is over Rs 1 lakh or both the parents are/were class II employees or one of the parents was a class I employee. The target should be that the benefits should go to more people among Dalits.
The BJP talks of Hindutva, which keeps Dalits at the bottom of the caste hierarchy? How can Dalits associate with this philosophy?
The Hinduism BJP preaches is the Supreme Court's definition - that it is a way of life. I agree with this interpretation. As for the party, the BJP was started by the zamindars and trading community. Then non-Hindus, such as Parsis, Muslims and Jains were in business and they were with the Congress. Hindu traders said they should also have their own party and at that time Hinduism was a political tool for the party. Then, the BJP was called a Brahmin-Baniya party.
Today, democracy has democratised the BJP. Its support base now includes Jains, Buddhists and people like us (Dalits). Today the BJP's Hinduism is for the entire Hindu samaj and not just for some particular castes. The BJP has shown a big heart. People in the party have accepted Modi, who hails from a poor family and is a boy from the teli samaj, as the prime ministerial candidate.
There is a view within the BJP and Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh that a non-upper caste, backward like Modi will not be allowed to become the prime minister?
This is a mistaken view. Let me recount you an anecdote. Once a Dalit leader greeted (Atal Bihari) Vajpayee with Jai Shree Ram. Vajpayee replied: "Bhai (brother) I thought you would greet people with Jai Bhim (Glory to Bhim Rao Ambedkar). Why are you saying Jai Shree Ram? You greet people with Jai Bhim only then the Dalit samaj will join you, and through you the BJP". Vajpayee was a large-hearted person. You cannot govern this country if you lack a big heart, it isn't about being a Brahmin but about being capable. Both Vajpayee, and now Modi, are evidence of that. And after all, didn't the party appoint Bangaru Laxman, a Dalit, as its president.
Aren't these SC morchas and cells a kind of appeasement. Why are Dalit leaders of BJP only seen on the party stage on April 14, the birth anniversary of Ambedkar?
I agree with you. It is entirely appeasement, whether it is the Congress or BJP or any other party, and aimed at making people from certain communities join the party. People from all sections should be accommodated in the party mainframe, but morchas or cells also play a role in accommodating people to have a stake in the party, and these leaders are also happy about it. So, this should be welcomed.
Do you envisage Ram Vilas Paswan merging his party with the BJP?
Ambedkar's approach was exclusive that Dalits should have a separate party, while Babuji (Jagjivan Ram)'s approach was inclusive of engaging with a bigger party and the larger society, which, in his case, was the Congress. Both of them were right, their paths were different but the goal was the Dalit samaj's welfare and progress.
India is a multi-party democracy and it's difficult to be a single party at times. But we can have issue-based co-operation. Both Paswan and Mayawati have contributed enormously towards the welfare of Dalits and that is why Dalits respect them. The fact that both have their own political parties makes the bigger parties give leaders like us some space. I would even venture to say that parties like the BJP and Congress may not give Dalits that kind of space in their leadership, if Mayawati and Paswan's independent parties ceased to exist. But I agree that Dalit political parties and leaders from across the political spectrum should join hands on issues of concern to our community. At times, that does happen on particular issues.
